Remington 700 Rifle Forums banner
1 - 20 of 44 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
6 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I am a new member as of today and have a few questions. I am currently the Chief of Police for a small 6 man department. We have a Special Response Team (SRT) that includes officers from my department and two others. We serve the entire county on an on-call basis. Basically if a department gets into something, we get called to clean it up. We found ourselves in a situation where a sniper would have given us an edge and a more secure feeling of someone covering us. I was the one voted to go to sniper school this March. The city is paying for the class ($1,000) but I am stuck with buying the rifle and other misc. equiptment. I ordered a 700 SPS Tactical in .308 which I did research and found it seems to be a really good weapon, but I havn't decided on a scope. The class instructors recommended a $1,500.00 scope that I can't afford. My budget for a scope is 300-500. Any suggestions on a scope would be great. I was told that we will have to shot .5 MOA @ 100yd and 1 MOA out to 300yd. Any help would be appreciated. I am not to familiar with MIL-DOT right now but I have ordered a Mil-Dot Master to try and get a head start. It's so much easier with my M4 equipt with an EOTECH. Thanks
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
37 Posts
Well sir there are some decent scopes in that price range. The weaver tac, super sniper, WOTAC, and many others. The average police sniper shot is well under 100 yards, but is usually through some sort of obstacle, such as glass. At that range a good hunting scope would also work well, such as leupold.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I have heard some really good reviews on the Super Sniper. I do realize "in the real world" the shots are rarely over 65-75yds, but for school they want long shots. Probably for the instructors to show off. I am a LE Firearms instrucot for pistols and the M4, and I will admit that I do my share of (safely) showing off with my Glock's and M4. I have heard of bases with MOA or angle built in. Do I need to worry about this?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
82 Posts
I have read enough on this site to realize I don't know a thing about scopes, and I have plenty of them. I would advise you not to buy any scope until you understand more about how they work. There is alot more to it than crosshairs/dots, magnification and glass. There are variables within the scope that can affect bullet impact and you need to understand that thoroughly before shooting in a hostage situation. I think you and your department may be better served with a more expensive scope. There are no margins for error where peoples lives are at stake. Money spent now, is cheaper than high dollar lawsuits later. Enjoy sniper school. I wish I could join you.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,799 Posts
I would save at least 1000 for a leupold scope that's has mildot system in it. And is you can get a nightforce in the 1300-1700 range. Also since you serve on the force you might get a discount. Look into it for discounts. I would not go with a cheap scope being in LE. I personally have a Hawke 4.5-14x42 sidewinder tactical 30. So far all really really good, and I have about 4-500 shots with it. The tracking works really good with no issues at all. Then again in LE were lives depend on one shot that can not be off I would go with a product that is backed by super good warranty and is a proven tool. As for bases if you need to shoot out to 1000 yards then I would say you will need one to make life easier. If not then I would go with with a standard o MOA base. The reason for 15, or 20 MOA bases is so the shooter has enought MOA or MILL adjustments on his scope. If the scope only has 60 MOA adjustments for elevation it might not be enough for 1000 yards so the 20 MOA base will take up some of the Negative MOA and give the shooter more positive MOA to adjust to make a 1000 yard shot possible just from adjustments. With Mill dots you can usually go out to about 600 yards plus or minus (I'm talking about the crosshair MillDots). Hope my crap made sense :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I want to thank everybody for the info, and yes in LE precision is everything on long range. I will probably sell a gun or two and opt for the Mark 4 scope. We have an area which is pretty much the tip of eyebrows to the tip of nose (triangle) to hit at whatever distance comes up. That is why I am reaching out. I always qual expert in the pistol (standard and tactical) and M4 tactical qual, but long range encounters I don't have the knowledge to jump right in. Like I said, I only have 2.5 months to get the scope and get consistant with it before school. I would wait, but this is the only school being offered to LE in the state for 2011. I did find out that other LE Snipers (around my area) qual every two to three months with 8 hours of mandatory training per month. All of them shoot a qual course of 100yd down to the 25 with .5-.75 MOA required.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
409 Posts
Having just gone through the Kansas Law Enforcement Training Center's week long police sniper school, I was able to see a small variety of guns and scopes. As I've stated in other threads, almost all (24 shooters) had the Remington 700 Police or PSS, with the Leupold MK 4 scopes. There were a small handful of other scopes out there, but most had the Leupold MK4's. I had a Falcon Menace 4X14X44, which served me well, but I had the problem of not returning to a perfect zero at 100 yards after longer range shots. I was only off by an inch or so, but that's not good enough for a true operational scope. Like you, I come from a smaller department, so I'm having to buy my own equipment. I'm saving for a Nightforce NXS or a Leupold MK4. That being said, I think the .5 MOA at 100 is a little unrealistic for a police sniper school requirement. We were required to be sub MOA at 100 yards, and most of us tended to hover between .5 and .75, but to require 1 inch MOA at 300 yards to qualify seems kind of hinky. My best (granted, I had the same Hogue stock that you'll probably have on yours) at 300 was 2 inches for a 5 shot group. If you read your literature for the course, it probably means you must shoot MOA out to 300, which is a 3 inch group. Likewise, an MOA group at 600 yards is 6 inches. Maybe that's what you meant with your first post, and I just misunderstood. Based on the price, I would guess you are going with a private company's sniper course, as opposed to a law enforcement training center's course? If so, I'd maybe look and see if your state academy has an LEO sniper school, and I'd do that and put the saved money in your scope setup. Our single officer price was $150 for a full week, but we had to supply all equipment, ammo, etc. They paid for meals. Lodging at the state academy was around $200 or so for the week. I drove from my home, as I was somewhat close. The first day was classroom, while the other days were filled with shooting out to 600 yards. Most of our stuff was at 100 yards, but we got a good amount of experience on the other distances, as well as moving targets. This sniper school was the basic week long course that certified most of the state's police snipers as "Certified Police Snipers". Before this, there was not a dedicated certification in the state, and the larger departments sent their snipers to Quantico for the FBI's week long course... while the small departments probably picked the best deer hunters on the department. The state is wanting to take our group, and continue the sniper education with certifications in man-tracking/stalking, advanced sniper tactics, etc.
Either way, it sounds like you're going to have a great time, and I'd probably opt for a $1000 plus scope. I didn't at first and the school went fine, but that was only because we just happened to have some drills right after our longer range stuff that gave me the ability to see that I was truly re-zeroed before any actual qualification tests. I think I would have still qualified had I not made the adjustments to my scope, but it would have been close. I don't think any of the shooters (save maybe one) who had the Leupold MK4's had to make any adjustments at 100 yards after coming down from 600. It's worth the money for the better scope. Imagine a situation where you had to go from 600 plus yards, back down to 100 (because new intel came in on your suspect location on some farm) and then adjusting back out to 600 with my scope. It's entirely possible that I could be off a foot or more preparing for a cold bore shot. That's why I'm saving my money for something better.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
mcraechief said:
I am a new member as of today and have a few questions. I am currently the Chief of Police for a small 6 man department. We have a Special Response Team (SRT) that includes officers from my department and two others. We serve the entire county on an on-call basis. Basically if a department gets into something, we get called to clean it up. We found ourselves in a situation where a sniper would have given us an edge and a more secure feeling of someone covering us. I was the one voted to go to sniper school this March. The city is paying for the class ($1,000) but I am stuck with buying the rifle and other misc. equiptment. I ordered a 700 SPS Tactical in .308 which I did research and found it seems to be a really good weapon, but I havn't decided on a scope. The class instructors recommended a $1,500.00 scope that I can't afford. My budget for a scope is 300-500. Any suggestions on a scope would be great. I was told that we will have to shot .5 MOA @ 100yd and 1 MOA out to 300yd. Any help would be appreciated. I am not to familiar with MIL-DOT right now but I have ordered a Mil-Dot Master to try and get a head start. It's so much easier with my M4 equipt with an EOTECH. Thanks
Really? 1/2MOA?
Factory ammo + factory gun + shooting off bipod + wind/weather makes 1/2 MOA VERY difficult to do. Yes, it can be done, but achieving it has been trivialized by many people. Especially without wind flags.

In so far as scopes on a budget, my dollar votes Burris Fullfield Tactical then Leupold. A good rule of thumb states that the scope should cost as much as the rifle.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
526 Posts
I have a couple of rifles that will hold 1/2 MOA at 100 yards but only off a solid bench with good hand loads. Those are custom rifles that have had a lot of work on them and I have been shooting for a bunch of years. I doubt that many could hold a consistent 1/2 MOA with factory ammo out of a factory rifle shooting off a bipod with out one heck of a lot of training and even more luck.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
409 Posts
1/2 MOA could be done under very ideal conditions with a factory setup and good match grade factory ammo... and good glass. But, as I said in my previous post, to have it as a requirement for a sniper school qualification seems a little odd. I think they typically look for MOA or sub MOA shooters who can still shoot MOA under extreme stress. They'll test that during the school and that will seperate the men from the boys... regardless of the equipment. To an extent...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Well I went down and met with two of the instructors today to talk about and look at scopes they have. I have to admit that I was not understanding what they were saying over the phone when I spoke to them last week. Paladin was right on the MOA. They want .5 to 1" groups at 100yd and up to 3" at 300yds. They said that the average LE shot was 65-75yds so if the situation requires a 300yd shot and you can shot consistant 3" or under at 300, then it is still a kill shot if you center the target head or chest. Sorry for the confusion guys. In response to Paladin, this is a certified LE Sniper school. Our instructors are (current) city and state police snipers with X Army Snipers doing the long range center mass teaching. From what they said, a LE sniper would be reckless to attempt a long range shot at someone with hostage. Thats why they have the Army Snipers come in and teach the center mass shooting for when the target comes into the open. I have a feeling it will be a very fast paced, confusing, and fun week for me. I am really looking forward to it. Anybody hear of or use a Millet Scope? I have read a lot of reviews on them. Seem to be good scope.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
409 Posts
You'll have a fun week and you'll probably have good instructors so it won't be too confusing. As far as the Millet scopes, I think those are super pricey military stuff. As in over $2000. But I'm not sure on that one. As far as the pace... it will probably be very SLOW paced. I'm talking a round every 5 minutes or so. It's all about the accuracy, the ballistics, the calculations (which they'll probably help you with, initially) and updating your dope book after each shot (where you log every single round, the shooting conditions, etc.). For the most part, it will be a slow (thankfully) but very fun/educational learning experience. Choose your scope wisely, get some good range time in beforehand, then have a good time learning the trade. The basic week long course will be more fun than stressful, yet you'll learn a ton. In a perfect world, you would get a better stock, 20 MOA base (which it sounds like you won't need if you're shooting only to 300 yards for the course), Harris bipod (a must), and some other random stuff. I was the guy who instead of having the "tacticool" shooting mats, I had my wife's blue yoga mat. After the first day (classroom stuff and weapons check), I saw that everyone had a small (grapefruit sized) black, tactical sandbag deal to go under the rear part of the stock, so I took a black sock and filled it with the only two things in my house that would work... rice and grass seed. But it worked and put me in the top 10 shooters, and I was even top shooter for several different relays/drills. Just practice before hand, know your own equipment and have a great time learning the trade.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
110 Posts
Do away with the adjusting scopes and get the Burris Eliminator which takes care of all the ranging I've seen them at the range and on you tube where one guy programs it then shoots and hits a target at 700 then then down to 500 with no adjustment pretty impressive!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
409 Posts
They'll laugh him off the range if he mounted a Burris Eliminator. It's a really cool idea, and I messed with one at a store, but it's not proven as an operational scope at all. It would only get him within deer hunting tolerances and not within eye band/t-zone head shot tolerances at great distances. They wouldn't allow it anyway. They'll want to teach him about MOA/mils/mil-dot ranging/clicks/all that jazz with a normal tactical/target scope.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
37 Posts
The millett scopes are inexpensive , the TRS is supposed to be pretty good. Decent glass, ive not used one on a rifle but did have a chance to kinda play around with it. They are not over $2000, youre into US Optics territory with that kind of scratch, or a shmidt and bender, kahles, kinda quality. The S&B scopes go for well over $2000, the PM II on my AI arctic warfare, is outstanding, no Im not rich, I got the rifle and scope second hand as a package. The US optics, you can go on the website and order the scope the way you want. You will quickly be over $3000 spec'ing out one of these scopes. Another problem with a more budget minded scope is eye strain. I had it in army sniper school so bad, I couldnt focus, ended up wearing a eye patch for 3 weeks. Better glass less strain.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
409 Posts
I was actually thinking of Shmidt and Bender. I priced those one time and they were all $2100-$2400 if I recall. Wow. I'd be curious to know why those scopes are $700 better than a Nightforce NXS. Good glass is expensive, I guess. Wow, again.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
37 Posts
Paladin, I have 2 mark4's and the schmidt and bender is discernibly better. I dont have a nightforce, so I wont comment on them. Many though find them worth the price. The S&B's have been adopted by the marines( it helps to have a rich uncle), The army is staying with the leupold, given its a very updated version, 34 MM tube on the new M24, to go with 300 win mag chambering, and some other changes. If you want a nightforce, I say go for it, some find it better than a leupold. I have spent more on a scope than on many rifles. Four years ago I got weird and sold off a major part of my collection, mostly the stuff that has been cluttered in my room. I decided to get what I wanted but only of the higher guality.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
409 Posts
I'm a little confused on the illuminated reticle of some of the MK4 LRT's, versus the Nightforce NXS illuminated reticle. The NXS doesn't seem to have a visible illumination control housing/switch, whereas it's pretty obvious on the MK4. I wouldn't mind the option of having an illuminated reticle. For now, for the price, I'm looking in the $1100 to $1400 range and that's going to take a few weeks so I've got time to keep on looking. I don't think I'd be able to get enough saved for a schmidt and bender, though it sounds awesome.

Wonder what happened to MCRAECHIEF. Haven't heard from him in a while on this post.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,799 Posts
The NF scope only have a on switch for illumination but the mk4's has a variable numbered illumination.
 
1 - 20 of 44 Posts
Top