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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have been in the Army for 14 years. I was trained to shoot military weapons in Basic Training, completed Sniper School, and have thoroughly enjoyed employing what I have learned both in my occupation as well as in the woods hunting. BUT (I mean like the big butt that the lady singing in the third row of the church choir has), I do not understand the perception that the general public has with "sniping".

I worked very hard to be a good shot (being left handed and left eye dominant is a small handicap) and to see people glorify "tactical" products and weapons, hurts me sometimes. I may be way off base, often I am, but why has the word "tactical" been placed on so many products? Are we as humans becoming so enamored with the thought of ending another humans life that it has become a marketing ploy that draws us in?

I own three "tactical" weapons, one was for training, one was for hunting (I liked the 20" bull barrel), and the newest one for fun. I am a hypocrite I guess, I couldn't find what I was looking for on the market and these filled my desires, but what is it lately (post 9/11) that drives our firearm market so far to the "black gun", "tactical", "mil-spec" side? What ever happened to using the good ol' lever-action .30-30 to knock down a 4x4 buck from a normal hunting distance? Why shoot from North Carolina to hit a Sambar Deer in Victoria with a .300 Winchesterton Uber Tactical Precision WMD Magnum? Just grab your wood-stocked Remchester in a caliber that has been proven on that type of game for years, call up Quick, tell him that you're coming to town, hop on a plane and go hunting. People have been hunting game with "normal" rifles longer than we have needed "tactical" Uber Mags to kill these newly bullet-resistant, armor-plated, mammals that walk the earth in the last 10 or so years.

Am I wrong? Sorry for the rant, but I really miss decent hunting stories, maybe I'm a little detached from reality, or just plain OLD... You tell me.
 

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Guess I'm missing what your talking about. Are you talking about AR style rifles or heavy barreled bolt actions? Are you referring to using large caliber rounds? I'm a little thick sometimes.
I've been using bolt actions for about 40 years if you count learning to shoot with my grandfather. (my father hated guns lol). Every deer I have shot has been shot with a bolt action 30-06 but one that I shot with a 12 gage.
I don't care for leaver actions and don't trust semi autos. I guess my distrust of semi's was boosted by 15 years in the National Guard dealing with earler versions of the M-16 yuch! Yes I'm old too lol.
 

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Robo, you're a serious person and you deserve a considered response. I'm thinking, not ignoring you. My immediate thought however, was that there is nothing wrong with simplicity. Presumably we come from different countries, so how our societies differ could have a bearing on how you Feel, which, after all is the most important thing.
 

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Its simple, people want to play soldier, same thing with airsoft and alike.

Many of us here own "tactical" weapons but our rifles are Precision rifles, a Tactical rifle is a rifle that is employed in a LE/Mil role. You can tell the posers, but the other issue is that many people buy them because there is soo much hype and they think its whats the best.

I build my rifle the way I have because it suits the style of shooting I do: prone-supported, long range engagement of unknown distance targets. I could take it hunting but I know I'll regret it due to its weight.
 

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Because B******t sells products to people who really do not know any better.
I can't speak from the military perspective but I am on year number twenty in law enforcement.
If the police use it, or it looks like what is seen on the military channel then it has to be better seems
to be the thought process. I have seen guys that own precision rifle setups that the price tag would
make you cry that have no concept of how to use it to it's full potential and have never shot beyond
100 yards. Others own AR 15's that have every conceivable gadget on it one can buy because it looks cool.
They can quote you specs and give you all the benefits of their Google Fu education and yet they
have no experience in practical application, but it's the best there is because they read it some place.
Tactical is a magic buzzword that seems to make people magically open their wallet and part with their cash thinking
it makes them better, again cuz it's cool or it brings them closer to Rambohood.
As far as post 9-11 we found out that our false sense of security was simply that, false. Since that event there
has been a real push toward the self defense, survival mindset. I certainly do not mean that as a negative but marketing has
taken full advantage of it. Quite simply fear sells products, make me feel safe and I'll buy it is the result. So bring on the
super sneaky, stealthy, badger ordinance tac ops Noveske wonder gun and all will be well in their world. Never mind
they have no idea how to use it nor have they come to terms with what it means to take a human life let alone live
with the aftermath of such an incident.
I guess that's my .02 cents.
P.S. I think your just old!!!! Just kidding. I to miss a more simple time where tradition and common sense were the standards
we lived by.
 
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
First, the fun of seeing how tight your shot group at 1000 yards is understood. Improving your marksmanship is applauded. But the taking (or attempts to take) shots at game from that distance doesn't make any sense to me. Hunting is fieldcraft as much as marksmanship, why don't we work on the fieldcraft as much as precision firing? I don't understand the need for some of these newer magnum calibers as if faster and farther equals "deader".

Secondly, I understand the need for self-protection, hell, people have been doing it for years. I don't understand the need to name something "tactical" when it hasn't been changed much since it's inception but painting it some intimidating color.

Like I said, I could be wrong, maybe I am, but I can't see how we as gun owners see this movement as an improvement in our relationship with gun haters... I am a precision military rifleman, I hunt responsibly, will continue both as long as God sees fit to allow me to, and I support your right to bear arms; although I just hope that we just do it responsibly. Thanks for the time and comments, you are making me a better person.
 

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People love gadgets and gimmicks. Just look at all the new and improved products on the shelf. Gadgets can make us much better without the need to train, exercise or study. Everything is marketed on appearance. Go down to your local car dealer and ask what kind of bearings are in the engine. The salesman can tell you the colors available, the seat covers, the wheel treatment, but no real technical data about the car you're going to spend 30,000 dollars on.

And so it is with guns. It has been this way for many years. I'm guilty of it myself. I can remember when the 243 Winchester first came out. (How's that for old.) I thought to myself, man, If I had that new Winchester 70 Varmint with the heavy barrel, I'd be able to hit Ground squirrels at 200 yards. Then I needed a better scope, then a better barrel, then a different rifle and on and on.

I think the people falling into the Tactical market are doing the same thing. Trying to buy excellence rather than train, study and exercises. You see it with motorcycles, golf and all sports. It's marketing pure and simple.
 

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There is the fact that some of the newer technology is just plane better. The SPS Varmint I have is the first rifle I have owned that does not have a wooden stock. I have a Model 70 that I got in 1984. The first new firearm I ever bought. It has been bedded and free floated. It shoots very good for a sporter weight barrel but when it gets wet the stock moves enough to touch the barrel. I have tried about everything to seal it to no avail. I don't have this problem with the H-S Precision on my Remington.
It is a little like wondering why people stopped using bias ply tires in favor of radials.
 

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Had to study your post, Robo. It certainly is thought provoking.
Firstly. ".....the perception that the general public has with sniping".
Do you mean a "preoccupation", of shooters generally?

Second. It looks like you are suspicious of what you see as a trend to "man-killers", compared to the traditional hunting rifle. You believe that people who are attracted ("a marketing ploy that draws us in") to tactical kit, may have sinister motives.
You could be right. On the other hand, they may be trying to emulate their heroes in the military, out of hero worship.

Third. "....maybe I'm a little detached from reality...."
This applies to no one more so than me. I mix with shooters, only. I do it to avoid gun haters.
Enjoy your sport to the fullest, Robo. Nothing you can do, will get up the noses of gun haters more than the sight of you, hunting and shooting, without a care for Them. They are our real enemy. Those misguided souls with their complicated, heavy devices might come down to earth one day and in the light of their experiences, decide to join the woodsmen and hunter/stalkers. If any one can show them how to do that, it is people like you, so don't give up on them, yet. In the meantime.........

GOOD HUNTING:)
 

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If,you need to protect yourself do you not think that your equiptment be on par to your enemy?
example, what if the british during the american revoulution was equipt with m16's and all
we had was a flintlock musket, we would still be drinking tea and paying tax's to england or
during wwII the axis had the A bomb? the what if's go on and on, HELL the thought has crossed
my mind a time or two, some people think like that. they are preparing for the new revoloution
I work in a gun store and hear the discontent all the time, it does not make them weird or subversive, alot of them are thinking about their futures and families.Remember our founding
fathers were considered traitors,nuts,crackpots and malcontents.But when the time came they
were as ready as possible,they trained and stored arms all over the country.......you have to
love those old crackpots! ........but this is just one of my theory's
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
quaid said:
Had to study your post, Robo. It certainly is thought provoking.
Firstly. ".....the perception that the general public has with sniping".
Do you mean a "preoccupation", of shooters generally?
Yes, perception as well as preoccupation, I think that a lot of people think that what I do is glamorous or something detestable... I can't tell a plumber that what he chose to do with his craft is wrong because I have NO idea what it is like to do his job (nor how much he has to go through doing it), as much as we ALL need him to be able to do it at the best level that he is capable of.

quaid said:
Second. It looks like you are suspicious of what you see as a trend to "man-killers", compared to the traditional hunting rifle. You believe that people who are attracted ("a marketing ploy that draws us in") to tactical kit, may have sinister motives.
You could be right. On the other hand, they may be trying to emulate their heroes in the military, out of hero worship.
I really don't feel that there is a sinister motive, I just think that there is a skewed perception, as I said earlier. If they want to emulate it, then come on and "taste the soup" don't just decide that you'd rather wait for me to taste it to see if I like it. If they aren't able to taste it on their own, then settle for reading about it or watching it on TV. Don't assume that if you have a recipe and a bowl, then your soup is as tasty as mine because you might be a horrible cook (not pointing fingers at anyone, I assume you all cook well)...

quaid said:
"....maybe I'm a little detached from reality...."
This applies to no one more so than me. I mix with shooters, only. I do it to avoid gun haters.
Enjoy your sport to the fullest, Robo. Nothing you can do, will get up the noses of gun haters more than the sight of you, hunting and shooting, without a care for Them. They are our real enemy. Those misguided souls with their complicated, heavy devices might come down to earth one day and in the light of their experiences, decide to join the woodsmen and hunter/stalkers. If any one can show them how to do that, it is people like you, so don't give up on them, yet. In the meantime.........

GOOD HUNTING:)
I feel that I do miss a TON of what is really going on in the world, primarily because my everyday reality is a big difference from what you guys do or get to see and experience. I will enjoy it as much as I am able to, and I did not mean to alienate anyone or preach to you, I just want to fix what's broken in my own mind (which is a MASSIVE undertaking).

Also dratt, I understand the need to meet every threat with the best possible advantage, but don't forget that I need some job security. I don't want everybody to eliminate all of the bad people, I still need to stay employed!
 

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Robo said:
quaid said:
Had to study your post, Robo. It certainly is thought provoking.
Firstly. ".....the perception that the general public has with sniping".
Do you mean a "preoccupation", of shooters generally?
Yes, perception as well as preoccupation, I think that a lot of people think that what I do is glamorous or something detestable... I can't tell a plumber that what he chose to do with his craft is wrong because I have NO idea what it is like to do his job (nor how much he has to go through doing it), as much as we ALL need him to be able to do it at the best level that he is capable of.

quaid said:
Second. It looks like you are suspicious of what you see as a trend to "man-killers", compared to the traditional hunting rifle. You believe that people who are attracted ("a marketing ploy that draws us in") to tactical kit, may have sinister motives.
You could be right. On the other hand, they may be trying to emulate their heroes in the military, out of hero worship.
I really don't feel that there is a sinister motive, I just think that there is a skewed perception, as I said earlier. If they want to emulate it, then come on and "taste the soup" don't just decide that you'd rather wait for me to taste it to see if I like it. If they aren't able to taste it on their own, then settle for reading about it or watching it on TV. Don't assume that if you have a recipe and a bowl, then your soup is as tasty as mine because you might be a horrible cook (not pointing fingers at anyone, I assume you all cook well)...

quaid said:
"....maybe I'm a little detached from reality...."
This applies to no one more so than me. I mix with shooters, only. I do it to avoid gun haters.
Enjoy your sport to the fullest, Robo. Nothing you can do, will get up the noses of gun haters more than the sight of you, hunting and shooting, without a care for Them. They are our real enemy. Those misguided souls with their complicated, heavy devices might come down to earth one day and in the light of their experiences, decide to join the woodsmen and hunter/stalkers. If any one can show them how to do that, it is people like you, so don't give up on them, yet. In the meantime.........

GOOD HUNTING:)
I feel that I do miss a TON of what is really going on in the world, primarily because my everyday reality is a big difference from what you guys do or get to see and experience. I will enjoy it as much as I am able to, and I did not mean to alienate anyone or preach to you, I just want to fix what's broken in my own mind (which is a MASSIVE undertaking).

Also dratt, I understand the need to meet every threat with the best possible advantage, but don't forget that I need some job security. I don't want everybody to eliminate all of the bad people, I still need to stay employed!
I too long for simpler times, when we didn't have too worry about crime,our government,terrorist
and other distractions.All of my customers are from all walks of life, alot of them are ex military
and have either been in the middle east or just going. and they buy the tactical arms as well as
the doctors and lawyers and farmers,they are fun to shoot you must admit.we also sell these
same people old winchesters,L.C. smith shotguns and ruger 10-22's,sure there are some people
that probally shouldn't have these types of weapons,there are some that shouln't have any at all
but the number one reason these people from all walks of life own these types of firearms is
they are fun to shoot, most of these guys also hunt with muzzleloaders and slug guns.......
remember variety is the spice of life and yes I love to tell some good hunting stories as well
and it has been great chating with you and hope we can again!
 

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The clone rifle business especially for M40a1 and M24 has been huge, some say since the two wars we are fighting, some say since movies like "Clear & Preasent Danger." I partly agree with you, wannabeness makes me queasy but at the same time there is a growing respect for the skill and sacrifice of actual military snipers. If someone wants a rifle that looks like the real deal, as long as it doesn't go to their head I think its ok. There honestly are better choices out there. The McMillan A3 stock as far as I know has never been issued to any military branch but IMHO is the best stock for shall I say lots of uses! I think it makes a great tactical rifle but it is also a great varmint stock and possibly a great hunting stock. The HTG of the M40a1 is a great one for hunting big game but most big game need a long action, and than it is no longer an M40a1 clone once it has a long action. Trust me a lot of folks have respect for the military proffesional and as long as folks just go to the range and have a great session with a great rifle I think no harm no foul. However if somone stands in front of the mirror in their underware holding their Celtic Rifles M40a1 clone and start shouting ooorah before going to the computer to play some video game and chat with airsoft buddies about how many brains they will be spilling, that is a creepy! Its about folks who are subject to dilusions of grandure and those who grow up and simply enjoy the shooting sports as best can be given our economy. The US military has a long histiry of great firearms. The shooting public has always been impressed with everything from the old Sharps rifle to the m1911 45 handgun. As soon as someone starts thinking their halfway to "being in the ring" simply owning a high precision rifle, those folks bug because it takes 95% more hard work and steel nerves to be a military sniper than just a guy ploping down a chunck of change on a hefty pc of equipment.
 

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At the end of the day a nice walnut or laminated stocked remington is a far finer pc of gear to behold than most MCM or hs stocks. And for a 1911-its gotta be blue and its gotta have rosewood, no digicam laser grips or coyote grips! The best guns in the safe are all wood stocked be they pistols or fine doubles! I had an M24 clone built by GAP, and no offense to GAP but my girlfriend needed medical care. I paid for that medical care by selling the M24 clone. The rest of my guns had too much sentimental value. The M24clone probably was a better shooter than anything in the safe but a guy in Texas is making much better use of it! I probably will do another clone build for keeps in the future but it will be the only one of its kind and I will shoot it far just for the fun challenge, not to prove I'm some uber sniper cause I'm not. I hope to be able to defend my family in times of need but I'm not Carlos Hatchcock, I would not have been able to do what he did. I have wilderness skills and can get by but I'm no Bear Grillis either by any stretch!
 

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Ok, I spent 22 years in the united states army, 4 in the rangers(Panama Invasion), Gulf war with the 82 Airborne Div, other places with SOCOM. Im not tooting my own horn. I pray to GOD I never have to look at another man again through a rifle sight, but it comes down to marketing. What sells to the mall ninja, forget the fact that he will probably never shoot it past 100 yards. But he has a "tactical" rifle, the person behind the weapon is more important, they are the one that can stretch the capabilities of the system. The one that has trained for years, practiced, prepared, realized that your enemy has done the same and has respect for said enemy. The people that say " i could do that", could they? You could crap in a box and write tactical on the side and someone would buy it! Its just marketing what is popular right now.
 

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Robo, I can't understand where your comming from because I have not walked in those shoes. But I can appreciate your thinking. I own all different types of weapons with many different purposes. Some are for the range, some are for self defense/work, some hunting, and some just for the heritage of the rifle.

I think the word tactical has a different meaning to everyone.
When I read tactical version, I don't tend to
Think in terms of better rather in terms of size or weight.
For the most part any weapon that i own that has the word tactical in it was purchased purely for the size difference. Arthrisitis has gotten the better of me over the last few years and I like the shorter, smaller, lighter weapons as I can hold them properly with little to no pain.
Just my .2 cents. Thanks for your service.
 

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Wow guys this started a thread for mile long writing :)
But to respond to your statement/question in a few word Mall Ninja and Tacticool hehe.
A term used in the firearm community to describe an individual who is obsessed with tactical, paramilitary style firearms and modifications, particularly firearms composed mostly of plastic. Such individuals are usually un-experienced novices who compulsively overpay for weapons and accessories not worth their weight in dog crap because such items looked tacticool in movies and video games.
Jeff: "Dude check out my new AR-15. Its got quad rails, a flashlight/ laser combination, a dummy grenade launcher, a bayonet, a telescoping stock, and an ACOG scope!"

Now we have us a definition for people who are head over heels for tacticool products :lol:
So now we have (mostly young) guys that when they see tactical on a package of a product they have to buy that, versus the normal product, so they can add it to their tacticool setups. So companies caught on to the mall ninjas and now they label everything almost tactical so it sells. I like to read and do a little investigation before I buy a product an if the non tactical product has good reviews then that's what I buy.
 

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I think we need to look at the word
Tactical = Designed or implemented so as to gain a temporary limited advantage
. Really it's just a word with many different meanings Goolge it! But I know where your coming from it gets used to death who knows what the next flavour will be :D As far as Rifle Range Snipers i like to call them people who tend to talk them selves up as a crack shotat any distance tend to be pretty ordinary. It's the ones who say next to nothing listen and watch tend to be the great shots.
 
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